Honolulu's Rise As An International Connecting Hub ? Civil ...
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Quoting g500 (Thread starter): Hawaiian airlines' aggressive expansion across the Pacific and to the U.S mainland has given HNL it's status back as an international connecting hub"..
It's OK to the South Pacific but HNL isn't a good connecting hub between North America and Asia due to the geography. It's much further via HNL than via hubs on the mainland or via NRT/ICN etc. HA will have to offer competitive fares (probably lower than other carriers to offset the several hours of additional travel) but it often means carrying the passenger up to a couple of thousand miles further in each direction. Doesn't sound very economic.
Just one example:
JFK-HKG nonstop 7014 nm
JFK-ICN-HKG 7117 nm JFK-NRT-HKG 7461 nm JFK-YVR-HKG 7683 nm JFK-SFO-HKG 8266 nm JFK-LAX-HKG 8459 nm JFK-HNL-HKG 9169 nm (I realize there's no nonstop service HNL-HKG but it illustrates the mileage difference to Asia via HNL)
I think the key is that Hawaiian serves - and connects - secondary markets like PDX, SAN, SNA, OAK, SJC, PHX, FUK or CTS.
Journeys between them can take a lot longer on 2-stop connections via conventional hubs.
I that sense, I think you can compare Hawaiian with Emirates, whose customers accept a longer overall travel distance for a single-connection itinerary.
For example, PHX-HNL-FUK is easier than PHX-SFO-NRT-FUK, in the same way that GLA-DXB-PER is easier than GLA-LHR-SIN-PER.
[Edited 2012-11-05 13:26:07]
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 1): Just one example:
JFK-HKG nonstop 7014 nm
JFK-ICN-HKG 7117 nm JFK-NRT-HKG 7461 nm JFK-YVR-HKG 7683 nm JFK-SFO-HKG 8266 nm JFK-LAX-HKG 8459 nm JFK-HNL-HKG 9169 nm (I realize there's no nonstop service HNL-HKG but it illustrates the mileage difference to Asia via HNL)
You should use a West Coast example instead. These connections are a lot more interesting as these are "real" transpacific flights as aposed to polar flights. Also the West Coast is a bigger market for them.
Its important to note, Hawaiian has to often sell such connections at discount compared to non stops, and even throws in free stop over, and most recently a free inter-island airfare as part of such itineraries.
But as HA CEO has repeatedly stated HA business is Hawaii and to sell Hawaii first and foremost.
As article mentions transfers to/from North America represent mere 1.7% of traffic. Even it were to double or triple its still small coconuts.
Simply put HNL will never regain the transfer business it had going back to the 1960s. Like Anchorage, that ship has long sailed.
Quoting flyingalex (Reply 2): I think the key is that Hawaiian serves - and connects - secondary markets like PDX, SAN, SNA, OAK, SJC, FUK or CTS.
Journey between them can take a lot longer via conventional hubs.
If you're speaking of Asia, I would count SJC and OAK out. SFO has it all covered..
Last time I looked, Hawaiian didn't have good connection times for my destination and no holiday time. One way required a 22 hour layover or some such thing. I am attracted to the idea of staying for a short holiday. Flying out of SJC was attractive too but not 22 hours, or even the additional hours of flight time, when SFO is 35 minutes up the road.
[Edited 2012-11-05 13:36:38]
The article clearly states that HNL's geography is not suitable for most Asia-USA flights. It focuses on the current ability to connect passengers on USA-South Pacific routes and the potential for future connections between Asia and Latin America. I thought that some of the passenger statistics were very interesting. Especially the fact that >98% of foreign-to-USA connections at HNL are apparently connecting to other airports in the Hawaiian islands. Although I knew that HNL-TYO was a big market, I didn't realize that it was second only to NYC-LON for international routes from the US.
Quote: "Honolulu is already a major international gateway. It handled 465,749 through passengers to the USA in 2011, according to a report from the Brookings Institution earlier in October. This makes it one of just 17 airports - including Atlanta, Los Angeles and Seattle - in the country that handled nearly 97% of all international through passengers during the year. Interestingly, only 1.7% of that traffic at Honolulu travelled through to the North American mainland.
"The city also hosts three of the 50 busiest international routes from the USA. According to Brookings, Honolulu to Tokyo was the second busiest route after New York to London with 1.4 million passengers in 2011, while Honolulu to Osaka was number 36 with 434,631 annual passengers and Honolulu to Seoul number 40 with 401,094 passengers. All of these are routes served by Hawaiian."
HNL could be a very idealistic connecting point for Asian routes to the southern Americas, in my opinion, because of the geography. IIRC some south American airlines did do this back in the old days.
Quoting mham001 (Reply 5): If you're speaking of Asia, I would count SJC and OAK out. SFO has it all covered..
Last time I looked, Hawaiian didn't have good connection times for my destination and no holiday time. One way required a 22 hour layover or some such thing. I am attracted to the idea of staying for a short holiday. Flying out of SJC was attractive too but not 22 hours, or even the additional hours of flight time, when SFO is 35 minutes up the road.
Granted, a 22-hour layover wouldn't be attractive, but what you want to look at are destinations which are not served nonstop from SFO either. At first glance, that seems to be FUK, CTS and BNE.
If you live closer to SJC or OAK, and you're going to have at least one connection anyway, you might as well fly from the closer airport, and fly via HNL.
So there is some scope for expansion, but in the end, this will win out:
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4): But as HA CEO has repeatedly stated HA business is Hawaii and to sell Hawaii first and foremost.
As article mentions transfers to/from North America represent mere 1.7% of traffic. Even it were to double or triple its still small coconuts.
Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 3): Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 1):
Just one example:
JFK-HKG nonstop 7014 nm
JFK-ICN-HKG 7117 nm JFK-NRT-HKG 7461 nm JFK-YVR-HKG 7683 nm JFK-SFO-HKG 8266 nm JFK-LAX-HKG 8459 nm JFK-HNL-HKG 9169 nm (I realize there's no nonstop service HNL-HKG but it illustrates the mileage difference to Asia via HNL)
You should use a West Coast example instead. These connections are a lot more interesting as these are "real" transpacific flights as aposed to polar flights. Also the West Coast is a bigger market for them.
Still over 700 nm further (close to 2 hours flying time) in each direction from LAX than most other routings. The difference gets bigger the further north you go. From SEA It's 1400-1500 nm further each way via HNL than via ICN/NRT/YVR (no nonstop service SEA-HKG).
This article is probably written a few years early for this to be any large scale impact in this regard. The new service to Oceania is intriguing though. Particularly AKL with ANZ having a near monopoly from the USA.
In terms of Asia, there are a few niche opportunities presented with the route network. However, with the kind of fares Hawaii service is commanding, not sure it's in HA's own best interest to really push or compete for most of this traffic. I'm sure the preference remains for the Hawaiian tourist.
[Edited 2012-11-05 13:53:12]
"While Honolulu has no direct flights to the region currently, an A330-200 could fly nonstop to the west coast of South America, including Lima, Mexico City and Santiago, Chile, from the airport. "
Mexico yes, Lima possibly, Santiago definitely not.
Why not? It's 5958 nm, a three class A332 has a nominal range of 7,250 nm, so it is well within the aircraft's specifications, QF operated AKL-LAX which is 5652 nm. Practically there would be days that it might take a payload hit, but I doubt it would be that often or that much. Mind you HA would need ETOPS 330, (not even ETOPS 240 would be enough), that is one *lonely* stretch of ocean.
Gemuser
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4): But as HA CEO has repeatedly stated HA business is Hawaii and to sell Hawaii first and foremost.
This is the key point! HA is developing HNL as a hub again BUT not in the normal sense where you want the connection to be quick and seamless, but where you stop over for a couple of days either going or coming or ideally both. That's the market they are developing the hub for from North America to Asia, not to compete with the non stops or better sited hubs. For Australia/NZ/South America they could develop the hub for both types of traffic. They do seem to be moving in that direction for the SW Pacific.
HNL will never be the major Trans Pacific hub it was before the B74L/744 came along, BUT there is potential for HA to develop NEW & DIFFERENT markets based around HNL's location and to make a very comfortable living in its niche.
Gemuser
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Quoting gemuser (Reply 13): This is the key point! HA is developing HNL as a hub again BUT not in the normal sense where you want the connection to be quick and seamless, but where you stop over for a couple of days either going or coming or ideally both.
How many people really stop on the way for a "couple days". Seems like a very hard sell or tiny niche especially for Americans with limited time off.
My wife and I are traveling to the Philippines from Alaska via Honolulu in January. We have a 2 day layover in Honolulu in both directions. I find a layover in HNL much more attractive than flying from SEA of SFO. We view the layover as a bonus mini vacation. We're booked on Alaska Airlines and Philippine Airlines. Our only reason for not choosing Hawaiian is that Manila is not our final destination therefore Philippine Airlines offered much easier transfers to Cebu.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14):
How many people really stop on the way for a "couple days". Seems like a very hard sell or tiny niche especially for Americans with limited time off.
True, I agree in most circumstances and this won't be any major part of their business plan for the foreseeable future. However, something like JFK-HNL-SYD...yeah, I can see there being a market for a stopover.
Quoting gemuser (Reply 12):
Why not? It's 5958 nm, a three class A332 has a nominal range of 7,250 nm, so it is well within the aircraft's specifications, QF operated AKL-LAX which is 5652 nm. Practically there would be days that it might take a payload hit, but I doubt it would be that often or that much. Mind you HA would need ETOPS 330, (not even ETOPS 240 would be enough), that is one *lonely* stretch of ocean.
Three problems:
1- Unless I missed something Airbus has not certified any airframe-engine package for ETOPS 330.
2- HA's A332 are higher density than QF's. About 55 more seats.
3- +300nm
When you add all 3 together it puts SCL out of range and LIM with a paylot hit most likely. HA will have to wait for the A350 if they want to venture into S.America.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14): How many people really stop on the way for a "couple days".
Quoting airbazar (Reply 17):
Three problems:
1- Unless I missed something Airbus has not certified any airframe-engine package for ETOPS 330.
2- HA's A332 are higher density than QF's. About 55 more seats.
3- +300nm
When you add all 3 together it puts SCL out of range and LIM with a paylot hit most likely. HA will have to wait for the A350 if they want to venture into S.America.
Disagree
1) I believe this can be done fairly quickly, from Airbus's point of view. In my opinion Airbus would be fairly amenable to doing this at a reasonable cost to HA. True HA will still need the experience required by the FAA, that will come with time.
2) So? Don't HA's A332s have the highest MTOW? QFs sure don't.
3) Its +306 nm ?. HNL-SCL is still 1292 nm LESS than the A332's nominal range. This should be enough of a buffer, most days.
SunriseValley: do you have any input on its feasibility?
How many people really stop on the way for a "couple days". Seems like a very hard sell or tiny niche especially for Americans with limited time off.
True, I agree in most circumstances and this won't be any major part of their business plan for the foreseeable future. However, something like JFK-HNL-SYD...yeah, I can see there being a market for a stopover.
Not the majority of their business plan, of course not, but I can see a fair size "niche" market that would be well worth developing. Within 12/24 months HA will be uplifting THREE DAILY A332 out of the SW Pacific (SYD, BNE,AKL). That's 759 to 879 seats per day depending on exact cabin config. That's approaching UA total of around 900 per day!! If they add MEL, as rumored, they will exceed UAs uplift from the SW Pacific!!!
I cant see all three (let alone 4) surviving on just Hawaii O&D, it will be necessary to develop SW Pacific and some Asian traffic into transit traffic to North America. Which IMHO is very doable.
Gemuser
To add to this point, it's important to remember the impact that through traffic can have on local tourism. Look at how tourism has boomed in DXB with the growth of EK, despite the fact that the vast majority of their traffic passes straight through the airport.
Developing the hub develops the network and makes HA a more competitive player for local traffic (ie flying to cities that other airlines can only offer with a stop). It's also very profitable, money which can then be invested in stimulating local traffic by promoting the airline and the destination.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14): How many people really stop on the way for a "couple days". Seems like a very hard sell or tiny niche especially for Americans with limited time off.
I surely do, I don't like flying trans-Pac non-stop.
Quoting gemuser (Reply 19): Not the majority of their business plan, of course not, but I can see a fair size "niche" market that would be well worth developing.
??
For any or Aussie or Kiwi, flying to SEA, PDX, SJC, SAN, LAS, PHX, JFK - (or even, for many, SFO) - is always one stop. There may be a fair few who would prefer to make that stop in Hawaii, with a bit of a holiday thrown in as a bonus.
I don't think anyone claims it would be huge numbers, but it does't need huge numbers. An aggregation of small numbers may well be sufficient.
mariner
[Edited 2012-11-05 20:26:36]
Quoting mariner (Reply 21):
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14):
How many people really stop on the way for a "couple days". Seems like a very hard sell or tiny niche especially for Americans with limited time off.
I surely do, I don't like flying trans-Pac non-stop.
I know plenty of people who are using Hawaii as a stopover on a trip to (usually from) the US.
Fairly standard pattern seems direct to LAX or SFO, work your way across to the country, often to Chicago or New York. Then a direct flight to HNL and two or three days before flying home. No one wants to ruin a great holiday by sitting on planes for 24 hours when you can enjoy a fairly cheap tag on to your holiday on the beach and make the flying less painful.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14): How many people really stop on the way for a "couple days".
Seems like a very hard sell or tiny niche especially for Americans with limited time off.
Erm, we're called Australians - and that is why Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne and Auckland all have rapidly expanding flights to Honolulu, all of which are more than 80% "outbound" travellers except for Auckland.
Let me give you a few pointers.
1) I get 5 weeks paid vacation per year - like many Australians. But my primary employer also allocates 28 days per year for international travel. I usually combine them to the extent permitted by our equivalent of the IRS, and where the school semesters permit my wife and kids join me in Honolulu or Orange County for the first or last few days of a trip.
Last year, for example, I had four trips to or through Honolulu and two to or through Los Angeles.
2) Of my closest friends and colleagues, around a dozen went to Hawaii from Australia for leisure purposes last year, even for birthday and wedding celebrations, because for any stay longer than around 5 days it is now cheaper for Australians to go to Hawaii than Cairns.
I understand that Americans get very limited paid annual vacations, and have to use them judiciously.
But when Australians go on business to the USA, the time zone changes and once daily flight frequencies tend to mean that even a two day meeting (let's say Wednesday and Thursday in Seattle) means that the entire working week is lost back in Australia.
So when I recently had precisely that itinerary (Wednesday and Thursday meetings in Seattle), my starting point was that I knew that my directors expected me to take the whole week away.
I then applied for the preceding Friday as one single day of annual leave. I flew Friday, and thanks to the international dateline I had Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday in Honolulu before using most of Tuesday going to Seattle. I then flew back on Friday to Australia, and was properly rested before returning to work on Monday.
If I had simply tried to carve out the shortest possible trip and arrive the night before my meeting I would have worked Monday and flown on Tuesday to Seattle (one-stop) and I'd have had no margin for missed connections. I would have been stressed and exhausted and the company's investment could have been destroyed by a missed connection. I would have used one day less of my work travel entitlement and one day less of my annual paid vacation time.
But doing it my way I was happy - I got four full days in Hawaii for the use of 1 day of paid annual leave and judicious use of two weekends. My employer was happy - I participated fully and in an awake state as if I hadn't just got off an airplane. And I burned one of my 25 days of paid annual leave.
Hawaii is very much viable now as a stopover on business trips to the mainland USA for Australians.
I just wish that SEA-HNL-FUK's price would be competitive with a routing like SEA-NRT-FUK. $3000 per person in coach for SEA-HNL-FUK is a bit insane.
25 metsfan1: I think JFK-HNL-SYD is very attractive since in the GC map HNL is almost exactly on the route between NYC and SYD and just about halfway. If they coul
27 CalebWilliams: Paid time off? What the h*ll is that? I'm I'm lucky I might get one week a year eventually, but I've been working for years have never had one day of
28 flyingalex: Vote with your feet and emigrate to a country that treats employees better. Australia has some fascinating programs available for skilled migrants, a
29 idlewildchild: Friends just stopped in HA both directions heading to Sydney. They LOVED HA service and said it was a great great experience. They flew from JFK and
30 Viscount724: You don't want higher MTOW than necessary as it means higher landing fees almost everywhere except at US airports where it's based on max. landing we
31 koruman: It depends upon the destination, but Australia-Honolulu is well over 70% outbound Australians going to or beyond Hawaii. It's the combination of a st
33 Viscount724: However I believe few Japanese take their full entitlement. The minimum is also 4 weeks in Switzerland (5 weeks for employees less than 20 years of a
. HNL-SCL is still 1292 nm LESS than the A332's nominal range. This should be enough of a buffer, most days.
?
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